Why Adobe Premiere Pro is not suited for the indie filmmaker
November 14th, 2007 : John Kary
Update, December 19, 2007: Please see my follow-up post with additional info on how to make Premiere AAF exports work.
I spent about four hours yesterday trying to devise an audio post-production workflow for a client shooting single-system (no audio field recorder) on the Panasonic HVX200 and editing in Adobe Premiere Pro 3.1.0. Conclusion? It’s not pretty.
After a picture-edit is complete, a rough audio mix of sync-sound from production is usually synced to the picture. Most low-budget indie filmmakers will have run their mic into their camera in attempts to save time/money on not buying/renting a dedicated field recorder. If they plan to edit with Premiere Pro, they are essentially locking themselves into frustration when it comes time to do any audio mixing.
While the Adobe Creative Suite and Final Cut Studio packages cater to indie filmmakers by giving them a boxed solution to make their film, Adobe is only facilitating the stereotypical poor audio mix that many low-budget independent films suffer from by not giving their users a solution to a professional audio mix.
Brief History of Digital Audio Post-Production
Digital audio post-production is usually done on a digital audio workstation (DAW) dedicated to sound mixing, not an NLE. OMF files can be exported from the NLE and then transfered to the audio house. These OMF files consolidate all audio from an NLE timeline into a single file, including all the info on the number of audio layers and clip markings, in hopes of recreating the timeline from the video NLE in an audio DAW.
OMF was traditionally licensed by Avid, and was adopted into many other applications, NOT including Adobe products.
Since then, the AAF format has been gaining ground to replace OMF. AAF can embed picture reference data so your picture edits will reflect in your DAW. Many workflows still use OMF files for their tired-and-true results.
Premiere and Single-System Recording Don’t Mix
Premiere added AAF exporting around Premiere Pro 1.5 (if memory serves correct.) But guess what? If you shot your movie single-system you’re still screwed!
Adobe currently has no professional solution for working with audio for a feature film. Audition is a destructive audio editing application, meaning does not support non-destructive audio editing, and the multi-track mixing user interface is not friendly for using a large number of tracks. Please see my update at the end of this post on the improvements in Audition 3.
Soundbooth is simply Audition in easy-mode, so that users without much audio knowledge can clean-up their noisy audio. It does not cater to the professional crowd at all.
The Dynamic Link features of the Adobe Creative Suite really are great. Being able to edit in Premiere, do further effects in After Effects and then bring that footage back into Premiere without re-rendering are truly beneficial. But when it comes to audio, there is no real solution except exporting as AAF.
The problem here is the AAF export from Premiere simply doesn’t work as it should or not at all.
Trying to Export an AAF
I found a workflow on the Adobe Forums that theoretically should work for getting the audio out of Premiere and in-tact in the proper timeline position. If it works, we will still be without handles, but at least we can get our audio into a DAW…
1. Unlink all audio/video in the timeline.
2. Select and delete all video clips from the timeline.
3. Delete all but 1 video track (Premiere doesn’t let you delete them all.)
4. Select all audio clips.
5. Menu: Clip > Audio Options > Render and Replace
6. Save project.
7. Project > Export project as AAF
8. Check “Embed audio.”
The problem? Premiere bombs! It simply crashes after writing the temp XML file for the AAF, which holds all the position/naming information for the files.
Why not just not embed the audio?
If you leave “Embed audio” unchecked, the AAF is written without an error. But if you try importing it into Nuendo 3.2.0, the timeline comes up with the stereo tracks from Premiere split into mono tracks in Nuendo. The files that were rendered by Premiere also are not linked properly in the AAF, as they come up as missing in Nuendo with the path being like “\\?\C:\path\to\file.WAV” where C:\path\to\file.WAV is the real path to the file.
Even if you manually relink the files to where they should be, they don’t resolve properly in the Pool and they don’t play in the timeline. But of course, how could they? The source files are stereo, and the tracks in the timeline are mono. Nuendo wouldn’t know which channel (L or R) to play anyway.
Why not try importing into ProTools?
From what I’ve read, Adobe has only explicitly said their AAF export would work with Avid systems (and presumably ProTools as well?), or into other Premiere projects.
I won’t have access to a ProTools system to import this AAF on until January, but obviously our existing Nuendo workstation isn’t having any part of it. Whether this is the fault of Nuendo or Premiere I’m not sure. The 3.2.0 build of Nuendo is from late 2005, so the AAF standard may have adapted since then. Although I have seen no changelog from Adobe that mentions anything about AAF changing since they implemented it.
If someone with ProTools could try this and report-in on it, that would be much appreciated.
How exporting an AAF from Premiere should work
Whether your audio is Linked with your video in the time-line or not, if you select Export AAF, Premiere should disable everything it can’t consolidate into the file, present the user with a confirmation dialog that not everything will be saved, and proceed with the export.
If you try to export AAF and have any type of Video or Audio Effects enabled, Premiere throws a fit telling you which clips and which effects caused the error in a non-user friendly dialog box. No, it doesn’t give you the option to disable them and continue, it just tells you it couldn’t do it. This is starting to sound like a nit-picky Avid machine.
Premiere should tell the user before proceeding that they cannot preserve effects and that they will be disabled. Once the export begins, Premiere should Unlike all audio and video information in the timeline and make temporary WAV files of every video file. The full temp files should be embed into into the AAF and after everything is written, delete the temp audio.
Or if a user wanted to create an AAF that links to original audio and video, the temp audio files could be written to a new permanent directory where the AAF then sources to those.
Conclusion
If I am giving somebody a consolation and they say they are going to edit in Premiere, I actively advise every one of them that they will run into huge issues when it comes time to do their audio mix.
Even if they want to manually go back and create handles on their audio in the Premiere timeline, that is a huge time-waster for a feature film. Don’t try and save yourself time by editing in Premiere just because you already know the software.
Final Cut Pro exports OMF files that work in every DAW I have tried. While Final Cut Studio’s Soundtrack Pro is making strides to become a professional solution, at least FCP has the decency to offer a working OMF export to bring the audio flawlessly into a professional DAW.
Do yourself a favor and don’t try to edit your feature film in Premiere. You will only end up with a bad audio mix, or a lot of frustration and an unhappy sound mixer.
UPDATE: November 29, 2007
Since this posting, Adobe has released Adobe Audition 3. Audition 3 has finally incorporated non-destructive editing into both the single-file and multi-track editing modes, added a feature-rich traditional Mixer to multi-track mode, and the ability to easily add a video track to the multi-track mode and mix audio to the video. This is a major stride forward for Audition, positioning it as a more-realistic solution to doing post-audio work for low-budget filmmaking.
However, Audition 3 still does not offer support for importing intermediate files such as AAF or OMF. Until this type of functionality is introduced, Audition is still not quite ready for any major post production environments.
What baffles me is why Adobe chose not to include Audition in the CS3 Production Premium or Masters collection, instead opting for the pathetic Soundbooth instead. Why offer tools geared towards a professional production environment (Photoshop, After Effects, Premiere, etc) and hold out on giving them a professional audio editing tool? It’s like using a super-computer to check e-mail.
Regardless, at a $399 price-point, Audition 3 has made some amazing strides since the re-badged release of Audition 2, making it a more usable audio solution. I can only hope that Adobe sees the gaping hole still left in their Creative Suite and replaces Soundbooth with Audition. If they can take it a step further and weave some form of Dynamic Link between Premiere and Audition, similar to Final Cut Pro and Soundtrack Pro, there will be no excuse for setting for a less than stellar sound mix when cutting a project in Premiere. Download the Adobe Audition 3 Demo and see how well it works for you.
Despite these additions, I still cannot advocate editing your movie in Premiere. As of now, there have been no changes in how Premiere handles AAF audio exports.
Update: December 2, 2007
A thread over on the official Nuendo.com forums is chronicling some attempts to import Premiere AAFs into Nuendo 3 and 4, with some users proposing that in Nuendo 4 you must import the AAF before creating a project, then export that newly created project as an OMF, then reimporting the OMF into your already active session. If any of this yields progress I will post it here.
Update: December 6, 2007
Premiere can export a CMX3600 EDL. Nuendo still won’t import it, but an EDL is simply a text document. Aparently Nuendo can import Premiere “Generic EDL’s” originating from Premiere 6.5. If I can find how a CMX3600 EDL differs from the Premiere 6.5 Generic EDL, I could maybe write a program to convert one to the other.
Does anything like this already exist?
Categories: Software, Tech Corner
what about editing with Sony’s Sound Forge?
Sony Sound Forge, to my knowledge, does not support OMF or AAF import/export. For the most part, it is similar in functionality to Audition as a destructive WAV editor.
Sony Vegas, however, offers AAF import. It might be a better solution for some users on a budget. Not only does it have a small learning curve, but it allows for non-destructive audio mixing, and has enough features to do a full audio mix if the price-point worked for you.
I’ll have to do some testing and see what happens.
I’ve used Vegas in a 35 short one month ago. We top out 60 channels, and plenty plugins running at once. Worked fine.
In the final mix we exported a six channel bounce. Get it in an Dolby Certified mixing house, import the bounce in pro tools, sync it to image and perfect…
Almost. The only problem is that in the export fase there’s no signal routed to the LFE channel (our bass monitor pass trough our front speaker’s, and the editor didn’t fell their abstence…). In the mixing house we routed what we think was needed and Bang! MO disc to the lab baby!
Final word: Budget mix with Vegas is possible (and Good!)
Whats the whole thing with OMF or AAF versus simply WAV files?
Isn’t audio recorded in uncompressed WAV anyway if you’re using an audio recording device (Zoom H4 Handy) during production?
Does pro-tools offer non-destructive editing?
also…What is the difference between Protools and Sound Forge 9?
I probably asking technical questions that are a little off topic, if they are or need a long explaination…can you direct me toward a website or online forum post that can answer my question?
Vegas is full pro DAW. Sound Forge is a Pro Wave editor, not a mixing tool, although can be fully integrated with Vegas (and Acid).
Vegas is the best indie NLE for audio, beats FCP, Premiere, Edius, Avid – only Protools and other DAW can compete with Vegas. Many musicians etc. don’t even use Vegas for video – just use the audio tools.
If you’ve got a big fat budget, Vegas can be beat. If not, it’s the tool for Indies (no OS/X version is biggest issue).
Ahh, Vegas – I used it for many years until I joined an FCP shop. While I do feel pretty good about the latest Final Cut Studio, the fact that I have to go to SoundTrack Pro *at all* to do a proper final mix is quite annoying. Going back to make edits in FCP is now possible but still a big hassle. Why can’t FCP just have the features of SoundTrack folded in… like Vegas does?
Vegas is a descendant of Acid, and the audio heritage shows up strongly. I concur that it’s a great indie NLE, it’s certainly my low-budget fave on Windows. It has (or had up to v.7) some limitations (such as 10-bit; changed?) and a few other issues, but in general it was fast and solid.
I miss my TrackFX… Want to filter or crop every clip on a layer? Just tweak the TrackFX. Brilliant.
I’m such a visualist that it’s hard for me to understand the value of a dedicated DAW (audio is my blind spot). Most hardcore audio people I know use ProTools, and won’t even consider anything else; couldn’t they do their job in SoundTrack Pro? Is audio mixing really that complicated? Is it about the hardware interfaces? Or, are audio editors just hyper-married to their tools? Is it that the film industry is slow to change, like the slow transition from cutting film on Movieolas to Avid/FCP?
I’m not dropping flame-bait, honest! I just don’t see why it’s so specialized.
For audio post people (which is really that complicated), it would be the equivalent of asking a picture editor – “Why do you need Avid or FCP or Premiere? Couldn’t you just use iMovie?”
Of course you could use iMovie, or mix a film in SoundTrack Pro, but the bottom line is how quickly and efficiently can you do your job. Does the software give you all the detailed control over your work and task at hand?
Audio editing and finishing requires a “re-edit” of the entire project smoothing every cut – picking alternate takes sometimes on a line-by-line or word-by-word (or syllable) basis. Then more editing with background ambiences, sound fx, audio plugins, music – and hundreds of tracks running simultaneously (on bigger features). Everything has to be heavily organized and completely stable. As cool as Soundtrack Pro is as an app, it’s really not ready for primetime cutting and or mixing a feature film. Yes, it can be done, but there are tons of tools that are not available in it that ProTools or Nuendo editors/mixers are used to as standard.
Sorta like you not being able to use a “roll” or “slip” tool in your timeline…. Or not being able to do a 3-point edit!
Anyway, hope that makes sense.
Kenn
Kenn – that’s just what I was looking for – thanks. I think on a feature film it’s a whole other ballgame. For day-to-day or indie stuff, it’s probably not necessary to get that level of depth.
Hundreds of tracks? Seriously? What on earth for? =)
Hello, today I tried AAF export from Premiere CS 3.1.1 and it imported into Vegas 8 without any glitch, even with video. Seems like this is my workflow from now on.
stooovie, what was your source footage? 24p SD? 60i SD? HDV? Did you shoot single-system so your audio was embeded in the AVI?
John, I dont think I understood anything. But daayyyuuummm, keep cometh with the knowledge.
So basically I should edit with Final cut still or is the new audition suffice for a feature film edit on premiere pro??
John, I tried it at home with plain DV PAL footage and it worked (in Windows Vista!). Single source audio, no render and replace of audio was neccessary. But at work with XP, I have never managed the same… Sad.
1. Unlink all audio/video in the timeline.
2. Select and delete all video clips from the timeline.
3. Delete all but 1 video track (Premiere doesn?t let you delete them all.)
4. Select all audio clips.
5. Menu: Clip > Audio Options > Render and Replace
6. Save project.
7. Project > Export project as AAF
8. Check ?Embed audio.?
The problem? Premiere bombs! It simply crashes after writing the temp XML file for the AAF, which holds all the position/naming information for the files.
Give this another try in Premiere Pro 3.2 – it should be fixed now. Thanks for raising this issue.
Was grazing this board to figure out whether or not AAFs can be exported out from Premiere, and gasped at some of the posts regarding audio post-production and sound design.
I’m a sound designer with various credits for film and broadcast. Sound designers and mixers make thousands of creative choices on films every day. Easily as many as the editors/preditors working on the same project, both major and indie. It is most definitely NOT only a technical position.
More concerning to me is that the general feeling that I’m getting from some of the posts is that sound professionals are needed for the big budget, but not for indie. BLASPHEMY! Indie films are easily in the most need for real audio work. Why would you be willing to settle for sub-standard audio? Why would you be willing ever, EVER, to release a piece of art with your name on it that has audio that’s “good enough”. That’s irresponsible. Silly. I understand that budgets sometimes don’t allow for a lot, but come on people. I guarantee that there’s an audio gal or guy out there who would love to help out at a reduced or waived rate for the credits.
I’ve encountered far too many projects in need of remix because the editor decided to do it himself. How hard could it be? What a joke.
A colleague of mine once said, “Remember that you can always close your eyes in the movie theater. Even so, you have to listen the whole time.”
Hello there, yep, it’s totally true – there’s no way getting a working AAF from Premiere Pro (wether it’d be an old or the up-to-date version) into Nuendo.
I’ve tried every possible way, read all work-arounds, and still – won’t work.
interestingly, I happen to be able to transfer the correct amount of audiotracks in stereo (!) – but they’re empty.
There’s not even a message of “not found, relink plz” or such.
Same happens with ProTools m-powered, except here’s the relink-issue plopping up. relink won’t work anyway, wether it’d be manually or automatic.
Well…sigh. Just wanted to drop that. Best regards anyway
Problem is now solved. Premiere CS4 now has full suppourt AAF and OMF so getting from premiere to Pro Tools (or any other DAW) is a non-issues. Moreover CS4 can also open Final Cut Pro XML project files. Ive tested it on some really quite complex timelines and works perfectly. So you can now seamlessly bring FCP proejcts to premiere and, as a backdoor, get them straight into After Effects render-free as AE opens Premiere Project files.
It seems Adobe listened to your issues and answered in spades.
Mike J
REGARDING THIS POST.
Sorry didn’t read all the negative comments on Premiere Pro and why it is not ready for feature film editing or audio work. You can do a search and find tons of sites that complain about Premiere and praise Final Cut. Some of it is or was justified, some not. Here’s my opinion which will change when something bettter comes along.
Final Cut Studio – Good solution on the mac
Adobe Premier Pro CS4 – Good solution on the PC or Mac.
Final Cut Studio comes with Color, Motion and Shake. Not familiar with the other tools. Protools for audio editing & Finishing.
CS4 has AE, Photoshop, Encore, Soundbooth, Flash, OnLocation, Bridge, Illustrator… In addition Autodesk Combustion for compositing, if you do not like the AE interface, and Nuendo for audio editing and finishing. There are many other tools as well.
There are probably loads of other apps and plug-ins for both platforms but I would bet there are more plug-ins for Adobes line.
Both editing systems can be configured with AJA, Blackmagic or Decklink cards to raise the bar and put you into serious high-end editing.
From what I see FC Studio has a longer trail of evangelists that see it as the answer to professional video editing. I think some of their points are valid and some others no longer but FC Studio has more big budget feature films completed to back it up. However, Premiere Pro is beginning to become accepted as a real tool for feature films and television programming. Advantages Adobe has at the moment are Red One native support, both MAC and PC platforms, After-Effects & Photoshop interoperability and just more hardware that can be configured into a complete editing system that gives it more bang for the buck.
Personally, I think both are quite competitive and complete for doing feature film work. What is probably more important then bickering about FC Studio versus PPro is the work-flow. The entire work-flow for picture, audio, effects and final output. Both can do it so it just means that you have to make up your mind what platform is right for you for the next 3 to 5 years.